Isha视频:张德芬采访萨古鲁--如何向内走与瑜珈的误区
发布日期:2017-02-07 15:50

张德芬:您提到了瑜伽,我有两个关于瑜伽的问题。在中国,有些瑜伽习练者将瑜伽视为一种身体练习,用来帮他们变得更苗条。不,到处都一样,或者达到减肥、保健的目的。但对于资深习练者,他们或许想了解自己的习练如何向内走,改变内在世界,对此您有什么建议吗?瑜伽的练习,如何由外向内?

Zhang Defen:Since you mentioned yoga, I do have two questions bout yoga. In China, the mainstream yoga practitioners, they are more seeing yoga as a physical exercise to help them, like, to get them slimmer. no, that's in everywhere, get weight loss or enhance their health.But, for advanced practitioners, they may want to see how their practice can go inward to change the inner world. So, do you have any suggestions on that? How do you do yoga from outward to inward?

 

萨古鲁:"瑜伽"这个词意思是融合。你正在呼吸吧? 肯定是的。但大多数时候,绝大部分人并不会意识到自己在呼吸。在一定程度上,呼吸意味着你在与周围的大气融合,它是这个意思。当你呼吸时,从很多层面来说,你是吸入了整个世界。今天,已有很多证据表明你所呼吸的空气中存在着大量记忆,你所呼吸的空气触碰过了如此多的东西。某种意义上,一切都存在于空气中,所以,当你呼吸时,你在和周围的大气融合。当你吃饭时,你在和我们行走的大地融合。当你喝水时,你在和身边的一切联结。但是,这并不是你的体验,比如说,如果你意识到你呼出来的空气,正被那些树木吸入,它们呼出来的空气,正被你吸入。假设你对此有觉知,不是在你头脑中, 不是在你思想中而是真实的活生生的体验。你能明白、体验到,自己肺的一部分,其实是那树木,如果你体验到这些还用我教你如何以正确方式对待一棵树吗?需要我告诉你吗?不用。

Sadhguru : The word "yoga" means union. Are you breathing right now?You are.But most of the time, most human beings are not conscious that they are breathing.Breath means, on one level, you are in union with the rest of the atmosphere,that's what it means. If you breathe, you are breathing in the world in many ways. Today, there is substantial evidence to show that there is enormous memory in the air that you breathe,it's gone through so many things.Everything is there in some sense. So when you breathe, you are in union with the atmosphere around us. When you eat, you are in union with the earth which you walk upon. When you drink water, you are in contact with everything around you. But it's not in you experience. If, for example, if you are conscious what you exhale these trees are inhaling, what they're exhaling, you are inhaling.Suppose, you were conscious, not in your mind, not as a thought but as a living experience.You understood, you experienced that one part of your lung is actually the tree.If you experience this do I have to teach you what is the right thing to do about the tree? Do I have to tell you?  NO.

 

在美国,树木通常被称为木材(wood,美式英语里常指树林),因为他们家里需要家具。他们的房子也是木材建成的,所以他们需要木材。所以最初来到这里的人,他们一看到树木就叫它们wood。如果你对家具没有欲求,当你真正地看着一棵树木, 你吸着树木呼出的空气, 就会把树木看成自己生命的一部分。而事实就是如此。你要等所有树木都消失了才意识到这一点吗?还是你现在就要意识到这一点?这是问题所在, 你的生命也在流逝着,这不只是关于我谈的不是生态学,我说的是构成生命的基础物质,我们喝的水, 我们呼吸的空气,我们吃的食物, 我们行走的土地,这些都是构成生命的物质。这就是你的生命,遍布四处。当你积累这个身体时, 你以为这就是我。当它抛撒在外, 你以为那些不是我。

 In United States, generally, these thing sare referred to as woods, because they need furniture at home.Their homes are built with wood, so they need wood. So whoever came here, first they saw the tree, and they called it a wood. If you have no compulsions about furniture, if you really looked at a tree, and inhale what the tree is exhaling, you would see it as a part of your life. And it is. Will you realize this after all the tree sare gone, and your life is going?  or will you realize it now? This is the question. This is not just about I am not talking about ecology. I am talking about fundamental life-making material,the water that you drink, the air that you  breathe, the food that you eat, the earth that you walk upon. These are all life-making material. This is your life, spread out there. When you gather it, you think it's me. When it's thrown around, you think it's not you.

 

瑜伽意味着, 在你体验中万物都是你, 换句话说, 打破边界, 即, 将你限制在其中的身体之边界。但是现在有很多人,在利用瑜伽强化他们的边界。他们觉得自己在用瑜伽来打造腹肌。你不仅没有打开身体的边界反而在强化这边界。这就像用一架飞机来掘地。知道吗,如果你想挖掘土地,有种会旋转的挖掘机可以用,但是如果你用发动飞机的螺旋桨去掘地, 你会认识到,它并不是设计来做这个用途的,很明显,你会感到沮丧。这也是如今正在发生的现实。你每天起床,做些扭转动作,过段时间觉得腻了,就说"去它的吧",再去做其它的运动。只有你使用专门的工具(才能解决问题)。如果我让你拧掉这个家具的螺丝,你用手指去拧,那指甲就都毁了, 要是用你的牙齿, 它们也保不住。要是我给你一把螺丝刀,你就能把螺丝拧出来了,对吧?而如果我给你螺丝刀,你却不知怎么用,把它塞到耳朵里去旋转,那么伤害会发生,幸福不会发生。但其实螺丝刀是很棒的工具,要是你会用的话。如果你不知道怎么用的话,只能适得其反。我这里举了个非常简单的例子。可瑜伽是一种非常复杂、非常非常复杂的工具或者技术,远比人们想象中的更复杂。如果运用得法,你可以让整个宇宙显现于你的内在,这就是瑜伽的内涵,瑜伽意味着融合。融合就是,你坐在这里,打开身体的边界,却能于自己的内在体验到整个宇宙。但是现在,人们把瑜伽当工具来筑墙, 没有人可以打破。 

Yoga means, you are experiencing every thing as yourself or in another words, breaking the boundaries your physical boundaries that you are in. But now a whole lot of people are using yoga to consolidate their boundaries. They think they are doing yoga to build abs. So instead of opening up your boundaries of your body, you are trying to consolidate the boundaries of your body.This is like using an airplane to dig into the earth. You know? If you want to dig into theearth, also there are burrowers which rotate, so you get an airplane where propellers are rotating and you are trying to dig into the earth, you will realize that it's not made for that purpose and obviously you will be frustrated. And that's all that's happening, right now. Every day, you get up, and twist and turn, after sometime, you'll get bored and say hell with it , and you will do something else after sometime. Only if you use an instrument for the purpose for which it is created.If I ask you to unscrew the screw of the furniture, if you try it with your hands, all your nails will go. I'd allow you to use your teeth, they will also go. But if I give you a simple screw driver,you will get it out, isn't it? I give you a screw driver, you don't know what to do with it, so you put it into your ears and turn it. Damage might happen, wellbeing will not happen. But the screw driver can be fantastic, if you know how to use it. If you don't know how to use it, it works against you.So I'm using a very simple basic example, but yoga is a very complex, very verycomplex instrument or a technology. Far more complex than most people everimagine, If you use it well, you can make the entire cosmos happen within you. This is what it means, yoga means union. Union means, if you sit here, removing the boundaries of your physical nature, you can sit here experiencing the entire cosmos within yourself. But now, you are using the instrument of yoga to build a wall that nobody can crack.

 

张德芬那么瑜伽怎么创造出这些呢?

Zhang Defen:So how can yoga create something like that?

 

萨古鲁:这正是我要去中国的原因。

Sadhguru : That's why I am coming to China.

 

张德芬比如说,我们在做山式,可以只是在做一个体式或者像您说的,把山式作为一个工具,去感知自然,去感知我们是自然的一部分或者我们和自然是合一的。您能告诉我们其中的区别吗?诀窍在哪里,是在于呼吸吗?应该怎么做呢?

Zhang Defen:Because, for example, we are in a mountain pose, and if we do it as just asana or we do it as you said as a tool to feel the nature, feel that we are part of the nature or we are one with the nature.Can you tell the difference? what is the trick, is it in the breathing,or how to do it?

 

萨古鲁:首先,没有诀窍。问题在于传授,传授这些练习的方式。你看,如果我给你一朵花,一朵鲜活的、充满生命的花,你就得想办法照顾它,当我发现你不知怎么拿这朵花。有这样的人,我给他们一朵花,他们像这样一把攥住,对于不知花为何物的人们,他们会这样攥的,花朵就在他们手中死去,那怎么办呢?我们就给你一朵塑料花吧。在中国,我住的每一个酒店房间都摆放塑料花。因为对于那些不知花为何物的人来说,塑料花是最好的。塑料花虽然看起来像花,但只是一片塑料,它不是花。所谓花朵,意味着它是那个生命的顶点。一株植物在那儿,什么是它生命的顶点呢?开花了,对吧?那是它的顶点。花朵代表着那个生命所能达到的巅峰状态。但是你做了一朵塑料花送给人,因为它很方便,想怎么拿都行,甚至在孩子不听话的时候,可以用它来打孩子。现在,你有一片塑料,却将其视为一朵花,这也就是瑜伽的现状。

Sadhguru : First thing is, there is no trick.The problem is in the transmission, the way it is transmitted. See, if I give you a flower, it's alive, full of life.You will have to care for it in a certain way.When I find you don't know how to hold a flower,there are people like this: I give them a flower, they will grab it like this, those who don't know what it is, they will grab it like this. Flower will die right in their hands. So then, what to do?Then we will give you a plastic flower. All over China, a lot of plastic flowers in every hotel room I go, I see plastic flowers everywhere. Because for people who are unconscious, plastic flowers are the best. Plastic flower only looks like a flower,but it's just a piece of plastic, it's not a flower. A plant is there, what is the peak of itslife? Flowering, isn't it? It's the peak.Flower is a representation of the peak that that life can attain to.But, you make a plastic flower and give it, because it's convenient, you can hold whichever way you want to, you can beat your children with it, if they are not obedient. Now, you have a piece of plastic, which you think it's flower, so this is what is happening to yoga.

 

传授过程中没有任何主观性, 只有单一指令的话,这样的瑜伽就像是死胎。与其这样, 还不如根本不怀孕,是不是?如果你追求的是身体健康, 那么去黄河游泳吧,去打网球, 去爬山, 做些健身运动。瑜伽肯定会带来健康,不仅是身体健康,它会给你各个层面的健康, 但这不是你去习练瑜伽的原因。你去习练瑜伽,因为你想与万物合一, 所以在传授过程中,必须有主观性存在。现在,我们成了客观性的奴隶,因为除了智力,我们没有用到任何形式的内在智慧。你只运用智力的话,智力只有像刀一样锐利时才有用, 是这样的吧? 你想要迟钝的智力,还是敏锐的智力?敏锐的,就像一把刀。现在你用一把利刃去缝纫,那只会造成更大的裂痕,刀不是合适的缝纫工具。你要缝纫,需要其他工具,但是现在你仍然用刀, 那是不成的。不幸的是, 瑜伽在全球的发展, 也正在经历这样的时期,仅仅考虑身体层面,一个死胎在诞生。人们以为自己得到一个婴儿,其实不然, 那是死的。虽然看起来是一个婴儿,但是没有生命, 不会长大。你有一朵塑料花, 它不会盛开,  对吧?完成足够的拉伸和扭转也许可以练出腹肌, 但花不会开的,你只是在加固那堵墙,而不是拆除它。我只是在说身体的这堵"城墙",而不是在说"长城"。 

Without the subjectivity, just the instructions are going, so you have a still birth. Isn't it better not to get pregnant, than to have a still birth? So if fitness is what you are looking for, please go swim in the Yellow River, play tennis, climb a mountain, do something for fitness. Yoga definitely gives you fitness not just physical fitness, it gives you fitness in all levels but that is not the reason why you practice it. You practice yoga, because you want to become one with everything. So in the transmission, there must be subjectivity. Right now, we have become slaves of objectivity, because we are not using any other form of  intelligence within us except the intellect. If you use only the intellect, is it true that intellect is useful only if it is sharp like a knife? You want a dull intellect or a sharp intellect? Sharp. So it's a knife. Now, you use a knife to stitch, you will only tear it further. Knife is not an appropriate instrument to stitch. If you want to stitch, you need something else but now you are using a knife to stitch, it's not going to work.So yoga, unfortunately, it's going through this phase around the world that only the physical aspect, a still born child is being delivered. People think they got a baby, they don't have a baby, they have a dead baby. It still looks like a baby of course, but it's not alive, it's not going to grow. If you have a plastic flower, it's not going to blossom, isn't it? So this is not going to blossom, maybe you will get abs, if you stretch and turn enough. But you are strengthening the wall, instead of opening up the wall. Now I am only talking about the wall of your body, not the China Wall. 

 

张德芬:所以,关键点并非你怎样做, 而是如何传授给你的? 

Zhang Defen:OK. So the critical point is not how you do it, but how it is transmitted to you? 

 

萨古鲁:两者一样重要。怎么传授非常关键,你怎样接收,也很重要。你怎样练习,同样重要,如果你的练习中不带入这些维度只带入一系列指令,那就变成了非常客观化的瑜伽。练那样的瑜伽,你也许得到身体的健康,但就像你把一架飞机当牛车来用,明明能飞,你让它在地上被拖着走,有什么用?你看到一只翅膀受伤的鸟,它飞不起来了,你会替它感到悲伤吧?是不是?但你看到没有翅膀的水牛,不会觉得伤心,对吗? 因为水牛本来就是在地上走的,本来会飞的鸟就不同了,它不能飞了,那让你难过,是吧?如果我还有能力感到难过,那么看着现在世界上瑜伽的现状,会很难过的,但是我现在已经失去难过的能力了,所以。

Sadhguru : Both, it's equally important. How it transmitted is vital, but how you receive it, it's also important. how you practice it, it's also important. Without bringing those dimensions into the process, if you just bring a bunch of instructions then it becomes a very objectified yoga. With this, you may get physical fitness, but that's like using an airplane like a bullock cart. That which can fly, you make it crawl around, what is the use? If you see a bird, whose wings are damaged, and it can not fly will you feel sad about it? Yes? But if you see a buffalo without wings, you won't feel sad about it, isn't it? Because a buffalo is only supposed to do that. But when you see a bird which could fly, and now it cannot fly that saddens you, isn't it?  If I was capable of becoming sad looking at the yoga in this world, I would have become sad but I've become incapable of becoming sad, so.

  

张德芬那么Isha瑜伽有什么不同?

Zhang Defen:So what is Isha Yoga different from normal yoga ?

 

萨古鲁:主观性。Isha瑜伽从来不是职业老师教授的,从来不是。如果他们不是将瑜伽看得比自己的生命还重要,我不会允许他们去教Isha瑜伽的。不是作为一种职业,一种爱好,或者一种娱乐,不是的。只有你把它看得比生命还重要,我们才让你去教授,因为只有那时,我们才能在瑜伽的教学中注入主观性。不然你会变得很职业,别人多付钱,你就多教点,别人少付钱,你就少教点,那样不行的,一旦有了算计,就不行了。现在,矢志奉献的人们,愿意为它献出自己的一切来传授,这才使得瑜伽得以发展。

Sadhguru : Subjectivity.  Isha yoga is never taught by a professional teacher, never. Unless they hold it above their life,unless they hold it more important than their life. I will not let them teach Isha yoga.Not as a profession, not as a hobby, not as an entertainment, no. You must hold it as something more important than your life,then only we will let you teach, because only then we can load subjectivity into the yoga that is offered. Otherwise, you will become professional, If people pay you more, you will do a little more. If people pay you less, you will do a little less. It will not work like that, once the calculation comes in, it will not work. Right now, which working the way it's working, because it's delivered through dedicated people who are willing to give their lives for it.

 

张德芬当我们习练Isha瑜伽时, 我们也需要投入生命去练习,正确的练习方式是那样吗?

Zhang Defen:So when we practice Isha yoga, we also have to give our life to it, that's the correct way to practice it? 

 

萨古鲁:如果你投入生命去练习,你的生命将得到提升而且是以你无法想象的方式。我不会要求每一位习练者做到这一步,但那些想要教授的人,必须这样对待瑜伽,否则就行不通。 

Sadhguru : If you give your life to it, it will enhance your life in a way that you've not even imagined possible. But I am not demanding that out of every practitioner, but those who wants to deliver, must hold it that way, otherwise, it won't work.

  

张德芬有没有这种可能,就是我们练习Isha瑜伽时只练习一般的技巧,不涉及精神层面和生命,就像一种平常的运动那样?

Zhang Defen:Could it be possible, that we do Isha yoga the way we do that normal technique, without spirit, without life? Or make it like just a normal exercise?

 

萨古鲁:如果你在大街上拖着自己的飞机,还挺开心。我还能做什么呢?只能告诉你,它本可以飞的。

Sadhguru : If you drive your airplane on the street, and if you are happy. what can I do about it? I am telling you, it can fly.


爱与恩典

萨古鲁

 

 

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