Isha视频:张德芬采访萨古鲁
发布日期:2017-02-07 15:26
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张德芬:您好,萨古鲁!很高兴见到您! 首先, 我请教一个问题:在现代中国,随着经济的高速发展,人们却变得越来越不幸福, 很多人出现抑郁的症状,有些人甚至选择自杀, 这已成为一个巨大的社会问题。对中国人来说,抑郁症更像是一种精神疾病, 我们不好意思谈论抑郁症, 不愿去寻求帮助或者我们以为,这只是短暂的情绪不适, 从而忽视了它。您如何看待抑郁症,有什么好方法去对治它吗?

Zhang Defen:Hi, Sadhguru, nice meeting you. Namaskar! So first of all, I would like to ask you one question that is China is now developing very fast but with the growth of the economy, people are getting less and less happy,Many people have the depression symptoms and many of them committed suicide which create a huge problem for the society. And...for Chinese, we think depression is a kind of mental disease,so we are ashamed to talk about it or ask for help or we think it's just temporary emotional discomfort and ignore it.So what do you think about depression,and is there any good method to cure it?

 

萨古鲁:我们可以给人类承受的痛苦贴上各种标签,你可以称它为各种抑郁,你可以称它为焦虑,你可以称它为压力过大,你可以称它为疾病,你甚至可以称它为疯狂,但是,问题的本质在于,大多数人都没有学会如何处理自己的念头和情绪,或换句话说大多数人没有学会如何管理他们的心智。这是因为,从你的童年时期开始你就忙着想要征服世界,忘记了如果没有掌控好心智,没有掌握好作为人类身体和头脑的机制。哪怕你坐在世界之巅,你还是会觉得生活很悲惨,这也是"内在工程"的由来。通过掌控外部世界的运行机制,你会得到舒适和便捷,但你却得不到幸福。如果我们要得到幸福的话,就需要掌控好自己的内在。

SadhguruWe can label human suffering in many different ways, You can call it varieties of depression, you can call it anxiety, you can call it stress, you can call it disease, you can call it madness, but essentially the problem is just this, that most human beings have not learned how to handle their own thoughts and emotions,  or in other words most of human beings have not learned how to handle their own intelligence.This is because right from your childhood you are too busy wanting to conquer the worldyou forgot that without having this in your control this human mechanism, this body and this mind in your controleven if you go and sit at the top of the world, still life will be miserable, So this is why inner engineering.By engineering the outside world, you will have comfort and convenience but you will not have wellbeing.If wellbeing has to happen, you have to engineer your interiority the way you want it.

 

当你说,现在的很多中国人在承受抑郁之苦,我们必须明白,中国作为一个国家,带领巨大量的人口,从赤贫之中发展到一定程度的物质丰裕、身体健康的状态,这是一个非凡的成就,或许,在人类历史上,从未有过在一代人的时间内,十多亿人口脱贫致富,前所未有,但是,当你发展如此快速时,会有一些痛苦和烦恼,但是要明白这一切是值得的。因为贫穷的状态,令人绝望的匮乏意味着人们没有机会发掘自身生命的潜能,不论是发挥天赋、表达情感,还是拓展各种才能都无法找到表达。因此,当外在条件比原来改善时,我们必须同时向内关注,否则,如果你们在这里遭受着抑郁的折磨,那么前辈为推动国家进步做出的所有努力,就被辜负了。前辈们就是因为相信这会带来幸福,才会做这些努力的,所以,外部环境改善的同时,改善内在也非常重要,所以我们就需要内在工程了。

When you say, today the Chinese are suffering from depression, We must understand that China as a nation,is a single largest phenomenon in terms of moving a large mass of people from extreme poverty to a certain level of economical and physical wellbeing.Probably never before, in the history of humanity, more than a billion people have moved from poverty to affluence in a matter of one generation, Never before, When you move that rapidly, there will be some pains and aches.But one must understand that it's all worthwhile, because being in a state of poverty, or in a hopeless state of poverty means that a human being has no opportunity to find expression to their lives,either in terms of one's genius or their emotions, or their skills or their many other capabilities,Nothing will find expression.So when the outside becomes better than what it was in the past,we must also gear ourselves within,Otherwise all this effort, a generation of people worked to bring it to this place as a nation,all their work will go waste if you sit and suffer depressions. All this was done believing that it will bring wellbeing.So as external situations get better, it's very important to work on the inner situations,This is why inner engineering becomes very important.

 

所谓内在工程, 我们明白, 在面对外在世界时只有用对的方法,事情才能做成,我们称之为科学或技术,但在本质上就是:理解现实、准确行动。那么,当我们在处理内在世界时,采用这种态度和方法,就是同等重要的。在寻求内在幸福时,人们尝试的方法有通过信仰,祈求天上神灵,通过哲学,或者通过意识形态。不!要寻求内在幸福,我们也需要用科学的态度,就像我们明白,面对外在世界时需要科学的理解和适当的技术。相似的,我们也用科学的理解和技术来寻求内在的幸福。我所说的内在工程,就是寻求内在幸福的技术。 

What inner engineering means is we have understood that in the external world unless you handle it right, things won't work.We can call this science, technology but essentially, understanding the realities and doing the right thing about it Isn't it the same attitude and approach equally important when it comes into your interiority.When it comes to inner wellbeing, people are trying to make it happen through belief by looking up towards heaven, or by philosophies, by ideologies.No, inner wellbeing also needs to be approached in a scientific manner,as we understand that external realities must be understood in a scientific manner and handled with appropriate technologies.Similarly, inner wellbeing must be approached with science  and handled with appropriate technologies.It is these technologies of wellbeing that I am referring to as inner engineering.

 

张德芬关于内在工程, 您能分享一下相关的哲学和技术吗?比如瑜伽体式、呼吸法或冥想来帮助我们进行内在转化吗?

Zhang Defen:Can you share with us some words about inner engineering ? some philosophy and also techniques?about yoga asanas, or breathing techniques, or meditation that can help us to do the inner transformation?

 

萨古鲁:我希望纠正一下这个问题,没有哲学,没有。只有对人类机制如何运作的科学理解以及让其顺利运作的方法。可以有不同方法来看待它,一种简单的方法是看我们所谓的"我的身体",每一秒,一个人的身体内有巨量的化学反应在发生,数量据估计有37后面加上21个0那么多。你想一想,12个0是万亿, 那么37后面加上21个0,不管这是怎样级别的数字,每一秒都发生那么多化学反应。目前,我们甚至还没发明出一台可以跟踪这么多化学反应的超级计算机,是吧,而我们的身体本身,就像是那样一台超级计算机。唯一的问题是,你连(身体这台超级计算机的)用户手册都不去读。所以,现在我们希望教授一种技术让你以此创造正确的"化学反应"。

SadhguruI would like to correct the question,there is no philosophy. No philosophy.A scientific understanding of how this functions and then methods as to how to make it work.There are many ways to look at this, and there are many complex ways of looking at it.One simple way of looking at it is see what you call as “my body " right now.They say, whoever measured it, they are saying that every second of your life 37 followed by 21 zeros, that many chemical reactions are happening in this body.I am asking you, to just give you a perspective, 12 zeros means a trillion, so 37 followed by 21 zeros.,whatever that number, that many chemical reactions per second.I'm asking have you even devised a super computer which can track that many chemical reactions, you cannot but this is a super computer like that.The only problem is that you have not even bothered to read the user's manual.So now, we want to teach you technology through which you can create the right kind of chemistry.

 

当我说一种正确的"化学反应"时,今天,现代医学以及相关学科清楚地告诉我们人类的每一种生命体验都基于一种"化学反应",你所说的平静是一种"化学反应",你所说的愉悦是一种"化学反应",你所说的狂喜是一种"化学反应",生气、焦虑、抑郁、压抑等等,人类的每一种体验都基于某一种"化学反应"。好,现在我们来看如何创造一种幸福的"化学反应"使得你从本性上就是快乐的,不是因为周围发生了什么,而是因为你内在"发生"了喜乐。现在,如果你要快乐,我们得去改造整个世界。

When I say the right kind of chemistry,today, modern medicine and science is clearly telling you,Every human experience has a chemical basis to it.What you call as peace is one kind of chemistry,What you call as joy is another kind of chemistry,What you call as ecstasy is another kind of chemistry,agony, anxiety, depression, stress.Every human experience has a chemical basis to it.Now, we are looking at how to create a chemistry of blissfulness that by your own nature, you are joyful not because of something that is happening around you,because of what's happening within you, you are joyful.Right now, if you have to be joyful, we have to fix the entire world.

 

作为新的一代,中国人已经改造了外部环境中的很多东西, 但现在人们在受抑郁之苦,这是因为除非你修正自己的内在世界,你的生命体验是不会好的。尽管生活获得舒适和便捷,但是幸福感不会随之而来。需要了解的一点是,我们这一代人,无论你来自哪里,除了某些地区的某些人口,生活在这个星球上的绝大多数人正在享受着前人无法设想的舒适和便捷生活。我们在物质生活上是最舒适的一代却不是最快乐、最平和的一代,因为我们还没能将内在"化学"转为快乐平和的状态。正好,有一种方法能帮我们来创造一种快乐的"化学"。如果,你体内的"化学"都是快乐的,那么你的快乐,就不再依赖于或受制于周围发生了什么,如果现在,别的什么人或什么事能够决定你的内在状况,那么这将是一种最糟糕的奴役,不是吗?有人能够让你高兴,有人能让你不高兴,有人能给你带来压力,有人能让你陷入抑郁,这是最糟糕的奴役,因为你的内在是由他人决定。你的内在,应该百分之百是你自己的事情,不是吗?

Now, as a generation, China as a nation has fixed many things from outside.Now people are complaining about depression, because unless you fix the interiority, your experience of life will not be good.Comfort and convenience will come, but wellbeing will not come.We have to understand this, as a generation people, wherever you may be, largely for most of the population on the planet except for a certain population in the world in certain parts of the world,largely for a whole lot of people on the planet,we are enjoying comforts and conveniences no generation ever knew in the history of humanity.We are the most comfortable generation ever but we are not the most joyful and peaceful generation,because we have not brought our inner chemistry to a state of peacefulness and joyfulness.So there are technologies as to how to create a chemistry of joy,If your very chemistry is joyful then you being joyful is not dependent or subject to what's happening around you.If right now, someone else or something else can determine what happens within you,this is the worst form of slavery, isn't it?Somebody can make you happy, somebody can make you unhappy,somebody can make you stressful, somebody can make you depressed,this is the worst form of slavery, because somebody is able to determine what happens within you.What happens within you, must be 100% your business, isn't it?

 

至于内在工程,有不同的层面,不过最简单的诠释方式就是通过调理内在的"化学反应",从而让你本性中就是快乐的。当你从本性上就是快乐的,你将不再害怕遭受任何痛苦,因为你已经能掌控自己的生命体验,只有消除了对痛苦的恐惧,你才敢完全迈开步伐,否则,在很多层面上,你只敢跛行。在我们的人生中,如果不去做我们没有能力做的事,那不是什么大问题,但是,在我们的人生中如果我们不去做我们能做的事,就是灾难了。当你并非由内而外感到快乐的时候,就会发生这样的事,畏惧痛苦让你固步自封,甚至不能去做本来能完成的事。所以,如果要避免成为"跛行的生命"的这种悲剧,一个人最起码要做到的是摆脱对痛苦的恐惧,不管外界如何变幻,我依然是我,当你获得这种确信,你将在人生的探索之中,达到前所未有的深邃程度。 

So inner engineering is on many different levels but the simplest way of expression is this,it's a way of fixing your chemistry, so that it's joyful by its own nature.So when you are joyful by your own nature,one thing that happens to you is there is no fear of suffering any more, because you have taken the experience of your life into your hands, only when there is no fear of suffering, you will walk full stride in your life, otherwise, the very life becomes crippled in many ways.In our lives, if we do not do what we can not do, that's not a problem,but in our lives if we do not do what we can do, we're a disaster.But this is what will happen, when you are not joyful by your own nature, the fear of suffering will not allow you to do even those things that you can do in your life.So if you want to avoid this tragedy of life, that you are not a crippled life, one fundamental thing that should happen to every human being is that there is no fear of suffering whichever way the outside is, this is how I will be If this assurance comes to you, then you will explore your life with much more profoundness than ever before.

 

张德芬:我可以证实,在我坚持练习您教授的方法之后,我觉得自己的内在状况获得了前所未有的改善。

Zhang Defen:I can do my testimony, because after I consistently practice the techniques you taught us, I feel really much much better in my inner state, which never happened in my life before.

 

萨古鲁:我自己就是鲜活的例子。

SadhguruI am a living testimony.

 

张德芬:是的。而且当我遇到您的弟子们时,我能感受到他们真的享受生活,真的快乐。

Zhang DefenYes. And all your disciples, when I met them,I can tell they are really enjoying and happy.

 

萨古鲁:我可以告诉你,在过去的十年间他们有些人从没有过一刻的压抑、焦虑或愤怒,完全没有。他们生活在完全的平和与喜乐中。

SadhguruI can show you people, in the last 10 years they have never had a moment of stress, anxiety or anger. Nothing.They just live peacefully and joyfully.

 

张德芬:但是有时候,我们看到有些人在遭受痛苦,我们也知道,只要他们改变态度和看待事物的视角或者学习、练习内在工程后,他们的人生会大有改观,但是他们很固执,他们不想要改变.对这些人,我们如何去帮助他们?或者说他们该怎么帮助自己?

Zhang DefenBut sometimes, we see people, we can tell that they are suffering.We know that as long as they change their attitude, perspectives about things or even come to learn inner engineering, and practice it,their life will be much much better but they are very stubborn, they don't want to change.For these people, how can we help them?or how can they help themselves?

 

萨古鲁:没有人喜欢遭受痛苦,没有这种事情,痛苦就意味着并非享受,没有人会享受痛苦,只是人们觉得别无他法,因为他们已经在痛苦中"投资"了太多。"投资"在痛苦中,是什么意思呢?他们"投资"在痛苦上却没有必要的智慧和力量去收回或放弃这项"投资",从而创造出新的可能性。但是,单纯改变观点并没有效果,这是最大的问题。我们在提供一种简单的技术。为什么我坚持强调"技术"这个词?因为对技术而言,信仰体系不是必需的,技术不需要你去崇拜它,你学习使用它就行了。有些情况下,人们并不是学习使用它而是从中发展出某种哲学,那就无效。比如,你有一部手机,你得学习去用它,然而, 如果你每天只是给它上香,膜拜它,那没有任何作用。你只需要学习去使用它。同样的,对于你的身体和头脑,你也要学会运用它们。你没法对它有态度,改变态度没有实际用处。如果你改变态度,从社交的角度来说,你会变得不同,但是你的内在不会有改变。假设你变得充满爱心,因为有人告诉你有爱心是好事。其他人也许在一段时间内,会被这种表象蒙蔽,但是你自己知道,在内心你变得痛苦,比之前任何时候都更痛苦。因为努力去爱某个人,其实是非常累、非常痛苦的,如果你内在的"化学反应"就是快乐的,那么你会以一种非常愉悦的态度,去响应你身边的一切。情绪的愉悦,我们称之为爱,身体的愉悦,我们称之为健康;心灵的愉悦,我们称之为平静与喜乐;情绪的愉悦,我们称之为爱或慈悲;生命的愉悦,我们称之为幸福或极乐。你若只是试图通过改变态度来练习(变得愉悦),而不是把这种愉悦带到自己的"系统"中。如果你试图通过改变态度来练习(愉悦),最初会觉得很好,但是过了一段时间,这将成为你生活中最大的负担。努力去笑,努力去变得开心,这些都没有用,如果你能改变你内在最根本的要素,移除你内在的摩擦,那么平和、喜乐、幸福就是自然而然的结果了。

Sadhguru:Nobody enjoys suffering, there is no such thing. Suffering means no enjoyment.You cannot enjoy suffering, but they think there is no other way because they have made investment in misery.What do you mean by investment in misery?They've invested in misery and they don't have the necessary wisdom and strength to withdraw the investment or to dump the investment and build a new possibility.But this will not come by changing attitudes.This is the biggest problem.We are offering a simple technology Why I am insisting on this word “technology"?Technology doesn't demand belief system, technology doesn't need that you have to worship it,you just have to learn to use it. Instead of learning to use it, they make a philosophy out of it, then it doesn't work.See, you have a phone, you have to learn to use it.Instead of that, every day you light incense, they can worship it,it won't work that way. You just have to learn to use it. The same goes for this, your body and your brain, you just have to learn to use it.You can't have attitude towards it, by changing your attitude it's not gonna change,If you change your attitudes, socially, you will be different within yourself, you will not be different.Suppose you become very loving, because somebody told you being loving is good. Other people will be deceived for some time, but you know, slowly it will build up within you  and make you miserable, more miserable than ever before Because trying to love somebody is very stressful and painful.If your very chemistry is joyful then you will respond to everything around you in a very pleasant manner.The pleasantness of emotion is what we call as love, pleasantness of body is called health,pleasantness of mind is called peace and joy,pleasantness of emotion is called love and compassion,pleasantness of your very life energies is called bliss and ecstasy.So instead of bringing pleasantness into your system,you try to practice it by changing attitude.By changing attitude, if you try to practice it, initially it feels nice but after sometime, that will be the most taxing thing in your life. Trying to laugh, trying to smile, trying to be joyful, it won't work.If you change the fundamentals of who you are,if you take away the friction within you being peaceful, joyful, blissful is a natural consequence of that.

 

张德芬: 那么,通过内在工程的练习获得的快乐是从何而来的呢?是从呼吸法,体式以及身体动作?然后再涉及情绪部分,以及思想?

Zhang DefenSo the joy we got from practicing inner engineering techniques is from what?The breathing, asana, the body work?Then get into the emotional part, or thought?

 

萨古鲁:这是因为体内的"化学"在改变,这个你可以去验证。哪怕想要去生气,很多人都不会再生气了。试试看。

Sadhguru:Because the chemistry is changing, you can have it checked up. The very chemistry is changing.Many of you, even if you try to get angry, you can't get angry. Try and see.

 

爱与恩典

萨古鲁

 

 

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